I am involved in looking at the merits of these two. I thought I'd share my findings here for easier use and less contentious discussion.
Most "guru's" rave about TLMP Crisis Suits with Targeting arrays, over the use of Stealthsuits. Nearly all of them take three such units or some slight variant of it. I contend that Stealth Clouds with 12 Drones and 2 x Fusion Blasters, joined later by the Detonator commander when a charge is imminent, is a more powerful tool and survivable unit. Synergy in an army can be scary and Tau are really good at it. So let's see if I have a point?
I approached it this way: What happens WHEN you ACTUALLY use these two units objectively and in the best case scenario where they are benefiting from Markerlights, so that BOTH units are hitting like crazy. Lets also assume that you know to spread out when its called for? Lets also assume that the units involved are at their FULL MIGHT, because obviously we cannot know when any unit will be pressed into necessity and every board, mission terrain, list and general creates infinite scenarios for where and if it is best to deploy. Those are not fair "What if's" to contemplate when list building because we know all those things are beyond our control. So I assumed the best of both sides. here is what I find:
Anti-tank Performance
6 TL Missile Pod shots WITH Markerlight help against:
AV 10: .97 glances, 2.92 Penetrating
AV 11: .97 Glances, 1.94 Penetrating
AV 12: .97 Glances, .97 Penetrating
AV 13: .97 Glances
AV 14: Nothing.
Stealth Cloud with Markerlight help against:
AV 10: 3.61 glances, 5.28 Penetrating
AV 11: 1.94 glances, 1.67 Penetrating
AV 12: 1.67 Penetrating
AV 13: 1.67 Penetrating
AV 14: 1.67 Penetrating
Crisis Suits vs. Toughness 6 Monstrous Creatures with 3+ armor
1.26 wounds
Stealth Suits:
4.07 wounds
Advantage: Stealth Suits.
1 round of shooting Vs. MEQ
Same Crisis Suits shooting with markerlight help vs. 10 MEQ Assault Marines:
1.39 Wounds, no chance of allocation killing the sergeant.
Same Stealthcloud shooting with Markerlights vs. 10 MEQ:
7.03 unsaved wounds plus what the Detonator command suit causes with his Airburst (which is too hard to guess, and he may not be in the unit yet, as he must join later when a charge is imminent). Allocation may kill the Sergeant. Also, the enemy unit that can charge can be pinned becasue of the Markerlights!
Advantage: Stealthsuits, big time.
Survivability:
6 BS 4 Missiles needed to kill the entire Crisis unit properly spread out. If in cover, 8-9.
9 BS 4 missiles won't even come close to killing the cloud if properly spread out, especially in cover and with Stealth Fields (the Commander will cancel the Stealthfield when he joins.
Advantage: Stealthsuits
Subsequent Melee vs. the MEQ who charge us after being shot once:
Crisis Suits:
6.61 Assault Marines with Powerfist Causes 1.87 wounds, plus 1.67 Powerfist wounds, probably killing the Crisis squad outright or running them down. Or...
Stealth Cloud (Assuming the MEQ were not pinned by Markerlights...):
1.97 Marines before Powerfist create .65 wounds, the Cloud then causes 1.67 wounds. If the Sergeant is allocation killed earlier by the Commanders Airburst or is dead now, the Cloud wins. The end. Not that unlikely. BUT, just in case...
If he is not killed, he causes 1.67 Powerfist wounds. Enemy wins by .65. Base LD 10 leader, we probably make the roll. If we dont, Detonator goes off. Either way, almost our entire unit is intact.
Advantage: Stealthsuits
Position before fallback
Crisis suits utilizing their range fallback 3D6. So do Stealth suits. Stealthsuits are far forward of the long board edge. The Crisis suits are not likely to be. Since both can make use of a Detonator commander, I'll call the Commander himself a moot point in comparing them. So who is more likely to lose their unit if it falls back?
Advantage: Stealthsuits
Deployment options:
Since the only difference is that Stealthsuits can infiltrate (and probably should in most cases) whereas Crisis Suits cannot, I suppose giving the advantage to the Stealthsuits is a given here. One disadvantage to Stealth Cloud is their size. They simply are very large and like all "mobs", you must consider it when you're finding them a home. This would be a bigger consideration if it were not for the Stealthfield, which protects them from quite a lot of shooting at times even when exposed. This consideration can't be glossed over. They will get hit when the enemy get's their turn if they can't engage an enemy. Obviously our assumptions when deploying forward is that we are going first, so by killing the closest target of our desires, we are making it increasingly more difficult to bring fire down on us. Still the eventuality of large blasts and the cover available to hide from them is relevant and fair to mention. This would ALSO be a concern for Crisis Suits, don't get me wrong, but not to the same extent. Then again, the Crisis suits inability to infiltrate does mean they cannot waste enemy movement on the lateral plane like Stealth units do. In other words, the further east or west the enemy comes to get at you and ensure range/charges on you the less likely they are to get to your far away objectives, nor harass any other part of your force, which is a good thing. 2/3 of missions have objectives and Stealth units can both stall as well as contest them better so...
Advantage: Stealthsuits.
What I am left to conclude:
Clouds cost more. Clouds do more. Clouds survive better. Clouds deploy better.
In a 1500 point game, this should prove a powerful unit. MEQ forces are unlikely to have huge units. 5 man squads will fare far worse against such a Cloud unit, let alone two of them wreaking havoc. In 2000 point games, it is easier to afford yet! Only against those who take big units and are willing to commit more than one of them to your annihilation will your Stealth Cloud be forced to kneel. Even then the resulting detonation could be fun to watch as would their loss of forward movement be.
Range is the last bastion one can use to argue the case for Crisis suits, even though both can be firing effectively in round 1. Does range matter if you're firing from round 1, both at armor in all likelihood and probably for the same reasons? How about in turn 2 when Rhinos have closed to within 12-18" anyways? Probably not. After all, the Broadsides in the army are likely to handle the heavy lifting and it's likely that both units will need anti-infantry a LOT more often than tank killing ability anyways. Remember, they're not in a vacuum. They have friends in the list. They don't have to kill all the tanks by their lonesome.
The numbers suggest that Stealth Clouds are easily overlooked but superior in most roles. Like in the comparison I did with Stingwings, this reinforces the observation that the Crisis suits are best when loaded with TL Flamers because for the cost they are really nasty. But all in all, the numbers say to take a Stealth Cloud over most popular variants of Crisis suits if you need Elites at all.
I have to say, when you decide to do a "little research" you really pour it on! This is the most thorough snapshot of this debate I have seen. What prompted this? I have read that 3 units of Crisis Suits are the "tourney thang" to do, but you're saying that Clouds kill everything better pretty much.
ReplyDeleteHow do you answer someone when they ask about the price? I see that you acknowledged their price. They are roughly twice the cost of TLMP Crisis suits. Looking at the math, it looks like 2 units of Crisis suits would still die a lot faster than the Cloud, but they would collectively do more damage to armor and be just a few points more...
Can you discuss that?
Sure. The simple answer is, that's true. If you split those points between two of the Crisis units, you can do the listed amount of damage twice... Which helps only if you're not killing bigger tanks.
ReplyDeleteFair discussion piece.
You start to go down the line and look at the other stuff we are comparing... Notice that against monstrous creatures, doubling the Crisis units doesn't work better, nor against MEQ targets, nor do a pair of Crisis teams perform better in melee. In the survivability department, it is the same story. Deployment is just as limited with one unit as two of them. So really if you go that route, you are going in knowing that you're weaker at everything EXCEPT Chimera busting with those Crisis Suits. Very small losses will degrade their ability in that regard. 4 wounds to the Crisis unit and you're back to where you started,
One other point: when Fusion Blasters penetrate a tank, they get a better result than the AP 4 Missile Pods do. So the NEED to have more hits in on the tanks is slightly reduced. For you the question is then: do I have other things in my army helping with the Tank duties so that I can take advantage of the clear anti-everything superiority of Clouds? If so...
Less units to support is important for the Pathfinders too. Don't forget them. The more units you use, the tougher it is to help them perform. So two Clouds instead of thre Crisis teams could be a better way of parceling out a diminishing number of Markerlights too...
I think you're making a lot of assumptions that bias your results. You compare TL Missile Pods to Stealths despite the Stealths having drastically lower range. The "melee survivability" component of Crisis is effectively infinite- you aren't getting charged until the entire rest of your army is dead, at which point you lose anyways so who cares? Crisis don't have to operate in melee range, Stealths do.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure whether you were assuming 12" or 6" distance on the Stealths for killing tanks, but no matter which you are using, you WILL get charged on the following turn, and probably shot a lot on the 1-2 turns preceding that. Using Fusion Blasters means getting inside the effective bubble of protection of your Stealth Field.
You're also (I think, the numbers seem correct) comparing a 150pt Crisis unit to a 300pt Stealth unit. Yes, surprisingly the Stealths end up with good numbers there.
You're making lots and lots of assumptions that support your premise and then acting jubilant when it turns out you were right based on them. I'm not saying you can't do well with this unit- I've seen people do well with very nearly everything. But it has major weaknesses (range, randomness of Night Fight, difficulty of moving it) and you just wave those off as irrelevant.
I'm confused??? He DID address range ("they are both firing meaningfully in turn 1"). He has a point. If they are both doing it from turn one, the only diff is exposure to a charge but he covered that too.
ReplyDeleteI dn't want to speak out of turn but I think the survivability thing is talking about what it takes to destroy the unit, regardless of when it happens, and he's right. The Cloud seems a ton more hearty. Those numbers he put up look accurate.
His examples DID assume he was the one getting charged right afterwards, just like you said. So I dont get why you're saying he didn't address it. I am pretty sure he meant the "bubble" protects him from OTHER units that want to fire on him, yeah?
My question is, would they even be ABLE to charge? They are probably pinned. If not, it seems like the Marine unit would not be strong enough to win it anyways.
So I don't really think you're right about his assumptions. I DO think that two Crisis teams (same points) compare better against tanks pretty favorably (1 unit doesn't but two does and same points). But everything else he listed seems rock solid to me.
Is there a list that went with this idea? Or was this just about the suits in general?
1st: I don't see that I waved off the "difficulty" in moving them. I addressed it directly. I'm not particularly worried about a 1 in 6 chance that a drone here or there might have to roll for. MAYBE I have to roll and MAYBE I don't. And since the same thing can be said for the Crisis suits if they want JSJ in cover... well... Whats the relative difference in issue? 2 wounds to a Crisis unit drastically decreases its efficacy.
ReplyDelete2nd I didn't say anything about RELYING on Night Fight. Ever. But it's there and its relevant and sometimes it works and that's enough to deter some units further away from shooting it for fear of wasting their precious firepower, unless there just are no more logical targets! Besides, if we're applying the same "issues" you raise to both units, then you'd also have to admit that the Crisis Suit simply doesn't GET Night Fight at all! Advantage: Stealthsuits.
>. I'm not particularly worried about a 1 in 6 chance that a drone here or there might have to roll for.
ReplyDeleteEr... that's waving it off right there, because you're saying "oh it won't matter." It will. You will lose 1/6 of the models (or, more accurately, closer to 1/3, because you'll have to test twice during the turn) that move into cover. That is a very significant fraction and it does not take a particularly bad roll to force a Morale test.
>And since the same thing can be said for the Crisis suits if they want JSJ in cover
Crisis, because they have a longer range, have more flexibility in where they need to be to do their job. Crisis teams are also 2-5 models strong, not 18. Eighteen models is a HUGE hassle to move around.
>I didn't say anything about RELYING on Night Fight
Without NF, Stealth are just overpriced Crisis. Either you're relying on it (and they're potentially useful, but suffer the problems I talked about) or you aren't (and they are strictly worse than Crisis.)
>I'm confused??? He DID address range ("they are both firing meaningfully in turn 1")
The Stealth Suits CANNOT be in range with their Fusion Blasters turn 1. It's impossible. You must start 18.1" away from the enemy when Infiltrating, and with a 6" move that means your Fusion is 12.1" away, which is still out of range. Moreover, if you close in like that, you will DIE. The enemy will just hop some guys from their transports and assault you (14.9" charge from a transport), and despite what he seems to think here, Tau are bad in close combat.
>but I think the survivability thing is talking about what it takes to destroy the unit
Crisis Suits are more likely to be out of range of the enemy's guns. Crisis suits are VASTLY less likely to be charged. (Especially given the assumptions he seems to make.) Crisis suits are less likely to take "random" casualties from shooting that has nowhere else to go (e.g. Rhino Storm Bolters.)
>His examples DID assume he was the one getting charged right afterwards
His many, many other examples have not, and have generally assumed grossly uneven matchups. Compare the Stealth Cloud to a 350pt enemy unit and they'll perform a lot worse.
>My question is, would they even be ABLE to charge? They are probably pinned
Only because he seems to assume he'll have an infinite number of Markerlight hits. Two for +2 BS eats up half of what you can expect from even a max-sized Pathfinder squad- and that's directing even MORE of your force to this one unit, which means you're not breaking tanks which means the enemy is rolling 12", 18", or 24" towards you. You can't just take it for granted every model in your army will have all the ML support it needs, because Pathfinders are a priority target and you will only have a few of them, even to start.
@abusepuppy: This is a weird post.
ReplyDeleteYou more or less suggest his unit will all be in cover at some point when they may never be. You're suggesting Crisis suits never will roll. You can't have your cake and eat it too. We should avoid such situational speculation. Both units run the risk.
When I play orcs and Tyranids, moving them isn't that big a deal. Why would it be now? 18 models is nothing. He can roll for distance if its THAT critical. You're kind of exaggerating the problem, no offense. Stealth Suit units fire from 18-24" away which means your 14" charge can't happen unless he messes up. If he IS within 12" I assume that's because he just hit with a torrent, killed 7 of your "MEQ" and is going to charge because it robs you of your extra attacks. So why are you bringing 14" charges up? I'm trying to see your point but you'll never be close enough to both dismount and charge unless he screws up.
Abusepuppy, you can't marginalize Night fighting in this discussion if Stealth Suits have it and Crisis don't!
You said the Crisis suits are more flexible. Explain this. The Stealth unit can kill more unit types reliably, correct?
This just sounds like obstinacy to me. All I see is numbers that back him up.
Your best point is being able to count on the Pathfinders. They might be targetted by the 36+ inch guns of the enemy (maybe).
How many Pathfinders would you need to take to make this list work? 16-18 Marker Lights seem like enough.
Well, the guy I know who plays this twin cloud has two full units of Pathfinders, with a Target Lock Shas'ui. I don't think he has more than that. He's beaten the crap out of me before with it. I've seen the damage done to others also. I'd have to say that it would be that many. Realize that after the first 2-3 rounds it stops mattering nearly as much. The Tau do their damage in those rounds and then people play a whole lot of vengeful catch up. Even clouds cant run forever. The question is, what's left to run them down? Many times the answer is "not enough".
ReplyDeleteSo yeah I think 16 would be comfy. Possibly 18 if you wanted a little bit of insurance.
>You more or less suggest his unit will all be in cover at some point when they may never be.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say that at all; my point was that a large unit (eighteen models is a LOT) that wants to hover in a specific ranged band will often be forced to either move through terrain or have a lot of its members be out of range.
>You're suggesting Crisis suits never will roll.
Again, that's not what I said. I said that Crisis, because of their longer range, are less likely to be forced to make tests (and will make fewer tests due to fewer models in the unit.)
>We should avoid such situational speculation. Both units run the risk.
Their relative risks are not at all equal, that's my point.
>18 models is nothing.
Seriously? 18 models is a large Ork squad. It's a horde of Tyranids. It is NOT a small unit.
>Stealth Suit units fire from 18-24" away which means your 14" charge can't happen unless he messes up
That's part of the point, though- due to terrain and unit size, he's forced to either lose a lot of shots or be closer than he wants to be. And, again, that 14" range is assuming infantry on foot- no Fleet, no Beasts, no Jump Infantry. Many, many units will be able to catch you even despite JSJ.
>If he IS within 12" I assume that's because he just hit with a torrent, killed 7 of your "MEQ" and is going to charge because it robs you of your extra attacks.
Only if the squad was already on foot and there's nothing else in the area. Transports are super-common. Charging into one squad only to get charged and die to another is not a good plan. These are both very bad plans/assumptions.
>Abusepuppy, you can't marginalize Night fighting in this discussion if Stealth Suits have it and Crisis don't!
I'm not marginalizing it because Crisis don't have it, I'm marginalizing it because of the way he explains he's using the unit. If you can fire your Fusion Blaster, you are too close for Night Fight to reliably protect you. If you can charge the enemy... you have been close enough for them to shoot you without regard for Night Fight for two full turns. If you are consistently getting all eighteen models in the squad to shoot the enemy, you are likewise going to be too close for Night Fighting to help much. Sniper Drone Teams make good use of the Stealth Field because their longer weapon range allows them to use it effectively- Stealth Suits do not. That is an important difference.
(con't)
>You said the Crisis suits are more flexible. Explain this. The Stealth unit can kill more unit types reliably, correct?
ReplyDeleteNot correct. A Crisis team will always, always, at any given range and points value be able to kill more tanks. Most Crisis loadouts can also kill more heavy infantry and light infantry as well. In any comparison of raw firepower, Crisis will inevitably win, because that is their specialty- Stealth suits nominally trade shooting for protection, but the nature of their rules in 5E means that the improvement is usually marginal.
>All I see is numbers that back him up.
That's because those are the only numbers he's providing. He's making major assumptions (range, markerlights, etc) that give the Stealth Suits advantages.
But here's some other numbers:
At 12" range, 186pts of Crisis (Fireknife) kill 2.05 MEQs (even assuming 4+ cover.)
At the same range, 190pts of Stealth cloud (4 suits, Fusion, 6 Drones) kills 1.95 MEQs.
At 12", 162pts of Crisis (Missile/Fusion) kills .58 Rhinos, damages .66 of them, and suppresses .75 of them.
AT 12", 170 pts of Stealth Cloud (4 Suits, Fusion, 4 Drones) kills .13 Rhinos, damages .46 of them, and suppresses .80 of them.
I could run more numbers of various configurations at various ranges, but the end result is going to be that Crisis are superior at any given job at almost any given range.
>Your best point is being able to count on the Pathfinders. They might be targetted by the 36+ inch guns of the enemy (maybe).
Any kind of reasonably intelligent opponent will shoot your Markerlights first because they are excellent force multipliers. If your enemies aren't doing this, either their army isn't very good (because it has no way to destroy infantry at range) or they aren't very good generals (because they don't recognize the threat Pathfinders present.) I'm sorry if that sounds insulting, because it's hard to see it any other way; anyone who's played against Pathfinders knows how dangerous they are.
Quite a text wall!
ReplyDeleteThe Cloud kills 7.03 marines with just two markerlights. Not 2.05. I have no idea what you're talking about, but the readers can do math as well as I can. NO Crisis suit configuration beats that. Sorry. That you want to PRETEND that there are no Pathfinders in the list is interesting, since there actually ARE. That "assumption" on my part is a pretty safe one for as long as it will matter (2 rounds, 3 if you go first). It was also stated at the outset.
Your basic gist seems to be: Crisis suits defeat math. Yet, they can't kill more tanks. They can't kill more infantry. They can't deploy as well or last as long. I showed you that.
Your argument rests on phantom terrain you can't quantify that I may or may not get in; Range being important despite it already being pointed out to you that both units can fire in turn 1; and... Pathfinder deaths that would affect both the Crisis suit and the Cloud equally anyways?
I know people would fire at Pathfinders. Of course they would. Unfortunately you need to create 32 wounds to kill them all, at 36" range. That's a TON of shots and most don't have enough (and that ignores the possibility for line of sight issues created by the lists own Devilfish). Where's it all coming from in turn one Abusepuppy? Are they really ignoring TWO Cloud units to do it? No. Not if you value life you don't.
And...The Pathfinders loss impacts both units anyways!
Now the unit costs more. We have said so. It does more (pinning and heavy tank killing with greater ease, kills more infantry) and unless I'm bonkers, it FIGHTS better and LASTS longer too in melee or against shooting!
Why are you so vociferously arguing that a unit that costs 50% more (304 Cloud vs. 180-200 for the Crisis unit)is going to produce LESS? That should already be counter intuitive to you.
Unless you have a more compelling argument (and I am listening), then I think you need to just go out and try it instead of fighting both math and actual game experiences. At this point you're ignoring both.
Disclaimer: I want to be clear that I do not use Crisis suits NOR Stealthsuits in my Tau tourney army as a rule other than the mandatory command suit. So lest this be misunderstood, this is not about me or MY army. It is just about solid observation. Just wanted to make sure people were clear on my motivations in this thread!
ReplyDeleteJosef, your math is very wrong when it comes to what melta-weapons will do.
ReplyDeleteYou also seem to be unable to understand what AbusePuppy is writing. He is taking the Stealth suits down to the same points value as the Crisis suits and re-running the numbers, and showing you that on a point-for-point basis the crisis suits kill more of everything except for heavy armor.
Your numbers on the "Stealth Cloud" are way off on the penetrating hits, because you apparently assume that every single melta-gun that hits will auto-pen. That is... incorrect.
Here's the real numbers:
10: 1.62 Pens
11: 1.52 Pens
12: 1.39 Pens
13: 1.20 Pens
14: .98 Pens
And how in the world do you expect a Jet-pack (not Jump Pack) equipped unit to ever get within melta-range of anything significant anyways? The Crisis suits can sit at range and fire at light/medium armor the Stealth suits will have a terrible time trying to get into range.
And comparing a much more expensive unit to a much less expensive unit is a terrible way to do analysis.
I understand what Abusepuppy is writing. It wasn't Greek.
ReplyDeleteMy math is correct. The meltaguns aren't all that's firing. You're ignoring the Glances as well, which is interesting.
Clouds never reaching anything significant because "they have jet packs" is hyperbole. The board isn't infinite in size; objectives force the issue as do KP's; the "significant" units don't get to instantly not be targets as far as I know, given that I deploy last; and KP's are 1:1 in significance when you get right down to it. If I cause you to deploy differently for the fear of these units, then have I not already demonstrated a value in and of itself?
I already conceded that it was a more expensive unit. It's not "terrible analysis" to compare them because they are in the same FOC, begging the question of which one can be built to be of greater VALUE as your hammer. These two units are the terminators of the army, in case you had not thought of it that way, and all armies need "terminators" in some form. There are big benefits to survivable units that come with fangs in 40K. 300 points in Terminators is a bear to kill and it kills 9.31 MEQ in cover on the Shooting Phase + charge phase. The Cloud kills more in the same amount of time and gets more turns to try most of the time.
The Tau approach it this way: Kill everyone and skip the next phase entirely. Boing.
TWO Crisis suit units can't stack up to one cloud. it's easy math. they just die too fast and the StormRavens of the world have taken away the time they needed to perform well. I own 20 Crisis Suit Models. No one is sadder to say that than I am. Trust me.
I am posting the list that was the Genesis of this look into the matter:
ReplyDelete2000 Pts - Tau Empire Roster - 2000 CLOUD TAU
Total Roster Cost: 2000
Elite: Stealthsuits (18#, 304 pts)
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 32 pts = (base cost 30 + Fusion Blaster 2)
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 32 pts = (base cost 30 + Fusion Blaster 2)
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
Elite: Stealthsuits (18#, 304 pts)
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 32 pts = (base cost 30 + Fusion Blaster 2)
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 32 pts = (base cost 30 + Fusion Blaster 2)
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
1 Stealthsuits, 30 pts
2 Gun Drone, 20 pts = 2 * 10
HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 96 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 96 pts = (base cost 50 + Flamer 4 + Failsafe Detonator 15 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Positional Relay 15)
Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad, 70 pts = 10 * 7
Troops: Fire Warrior
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10
Troops: Fire Warrior
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10
Troops: Fire Warrior
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10
1 Devilfish, 85 pts = (base cost 80 + Disruption Pod 5)
Fast Attack: Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder, 84 pts = 7 * 12
1 Shas'ui, 27 pts = (base cost 22 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5)
1 Devilfish, 85 pts = (base cost 80) + Decoy Launchers 5
Fast Attack: Pathfinder
7 Pathfinder, 84 pts = 7 * 12
1 Shas'ui, 27 pts = (base cost 22 + Hard-wired Target Lock 5)
1 Devilfish, 85 pts = (base cost 80) + Decoy Launchers 5
Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 103 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Blacksun Filter 3 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Advanced Stabilisation System 10 + Team Leader 5)
2 Shield Drone, 30 pts = 2 * 15
Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 103 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Blacksun Filter 3 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Advanced Stabilisation System 10 + Team Leader 5)
2 Shield Drone, 30 pts = 2 * 15
Heavy Support: Broadside Battlesuit
1 Broadside Battlesuit, 103 pts = (base cost 70 + Hard-wired Blacksun Filter 3 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle 10 + Advanced Stabilisation System 10 + Team Leader 5)
2 Shield Drone, 30 pts = 2 * 15
Fast Attack: Piranha Light Skimmer
2 Piranha Light Skimmer, 170 pts = 2 * 75 (base cost 60 + Disruption Pod 5 + Flechette Discharger 10) + Fusion Blaster x2 10 + Targeting Array x2 10